Where can a new rider gain skills?

General discussion of any issues that vaguely or not so vaguely relate to stuff about things that concern riding.

Moderator: BAM Moderators

Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby nickpashley » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:33 am

Hi

So I have a mate at work who passed his test (after failing it once) early this year. He has a BMW F650S and rides to work daily.

I have been out for a ride with him three times, and here is what happened:
1. We went through Bishopsworth, Chew Stoke, Compton Martin, Yoxter, to Cheddar Gorge. He followed me at a relaxed pace. As we descended the gorge, with me keeping an eye on him in my mirror, I noticed something that didn't look right and on looking again his bike was on it's side an he was on his sitty-bottom on the middle of the road. He had failed to take a bend, front wheel touched the agriculture and he fell off. Thankfully he was OK. Bike suffered scratches, broken indicator and broken footrest. We left the bike in a parking space, went back on mine to pick his car up and returned to pick the bike up. I rode back with my leg swinging in the breeze.
2. We went to Riders together, he followed me through Bristol, and by Gardiner Haskins I pulled out from a T junction, he followed, saw a cyclist coming, and attempted to turn back (too damn difficult to explain), ending up on the street we were turning into, but on the wrong side.
3. We went to St Arvans near Chepstow (well, actually Cot). On the way, he travelled at 50mph on the motorway, Polish and Latvian lorries overtaking him nice and close and at one point, on the filter for the M5, a white transit had his lights on full beam travelling about one metre behind him. On the road, rather than the motorway, watching him in my mirrors, he twice ended up on the wrong side of the road on blind bends. Again, we were at a relaxed pace.

After 1, he said he needed more practise, and he has been riding for about 7 months now. After 2, he really didn't think he had done anything wrong and that what had happened was normal. And after 3, the same.

What can I do with him? Maybe he needs one of these courses:

http://www.schraeglagen-training.de/iframe_bilder.html

But where can I find one in the UK?

My random mutterings:
He has two issues, his speed on the motorway and his failure to follow the curves of the road.
He knows his bike can go faster and can follow the road as he has been on the back with me (after dropping my bike off at Riders) along the ring road.
I feel a responsibility for him I really do need to prevent future accidents.
How did he ever pass his test?
User avatar
nickpashley
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:12 pm

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby ozzzie » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:51 am

nickpashley wrote:What can I do with him? Maybe he needs one of these courses:


Is this a trick question? Why don't you sign him up for Skill for Life with us?
Oz.
Site Admin
Image

Warning: Postings may contain traces of irony or sarcasm.
User avatar
ozzzie
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2255
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Willy Bridge

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby nickpashley » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:45 pm

He could go for Skills for Life, but I think you need to be at a "certain" level before enrolling.

I seriously think he needs some off-road (not cross country) training. He is an accident waiting to happen, not someone who wants to polish his skills.
User avatar
nickpashley
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:12 pm

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby ozzzie » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:27 pm

nickpashley wrote:He could go for Skills for Life, but I think you need to be at a "certain" level before enrolling.


Ah, I see. He must be a semi-advanced rider before he can be taught to be an advanced rider.
Oz.
Site Admin
Image

Warning: Postings may contain traces of irony or sarcasm.
User avatar
ozzzie
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2255
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Willy Bridge

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby BikingNinja » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:32 pm

He's obviously ok to a certain level as he is getting to and from work everyday without falling off so is his problem only when he is following someone.

Try taking him out and get him to lead and see if he is just as bad. His problem might be he is fixating on the bike in front and forgetting to actualy concentrate on what he is doing.

BN
User avatar
BikingNinja
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 1:01 pm
Location: clevedon

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby nickpashley » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:54 pm

ozzzie wrote:
nickpashley wrote:He could go for Skills for Life, but I think you need to be at a "certain" level before enrolling.


Ah, I see. He must be a semi-advanced rider before he can be taught to be an advanced rider.


You tell me... "semi-advanced" are your words, maybe you could define that skill level. My words would be "unable to make correct use of steering" and "unable to ride the motorcycle at the speed of surrounding traffic".

Is a person who is not up to Full Motorcycle Licence standard (yet has a full licence) the sort of candidate for Skills For Life? Or would you say they would need some basic training first? Should I enrol him only for him to be told that motorcycling is not for him, and for him to lose 100 notes or so that could have been spent on something more fundamental?

BN, you are bang on the money. I will try that, thanks!

I think the real answer is that he is not looking far enough ahead and he has no confidence in the bike, but how do you teach him those skills?
User avatar
nickpashley
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:12 pm

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby ozzzie » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:03 pm

nickpashley wrote:You tell me... "semi-advanced" are your words,


I think perhaps my tongue in cheek point was too subtle.

It doesn't matter where he is on the scale. Get him signed up and we'll sort him out!
Oz.
Site Admin
Image

Warning: Postings may contain traces of irony or sarcasm.
User avatar
ozzzie
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2255
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Willy Bridge

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby nickpashley » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:21 pm

Only if you promise to be his observer...
User avatar
nickpashley
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:12 pm

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby ozzzie » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:22 pm

nickpashley wrote:Only if you promise to be his observer...


Delegation is a key skill in leadership...
Oz.
Site Admin
Image

Warning: Postings may contain traces of irony or sarcasm.
User avatar
ozzzie
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2255
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Location: Willy Bridge

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby SimonJ » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:14 am

Nick, I must back Oz up on this one. Whilst it's likely this chap will need an experienced observer, there is no reason why given time & patience he shouldn't succeed, assuming he wants to learn. You couldn't have described a more suitable candidate for Skill for Life.
Simon J
User avatar
SimonJ
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:26 pm

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby Horse » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:46 pm

nickpashley wrote:He could go for Skills for Life, but I think you need to be at a "certain" level before enrolling.

I seriously think he needs some off-road (not cross country) training. He is an accident waiting to happen, not someone who wants to polish his skills.


You're right. IMVHO at least :)

Yes, he might benefit from 'traditional' IAM road work - in particular on reading bends, but I think he needs far more basic machine control work.

In particular:
- Head turns; look where you want to go
- Steering; conscious use of counter-steering
- Drive the bike gently through the turn

And on-road isn't the place for him to learn those skills.

I'd hazard a guess that he's approaching corners at perfectly reasonable (for most of us) speeds, he's
- probably trying to direct-steer rather than counter-steer
- when the bike doesn't turn as he needs he'slooking at the scenery rather than the road ahead
- then grabbing (rather than smoothly applying) the front brake.

All the above determined from your descriptions, but they indicate quite clearly to me that he needs very basic work on getting the bike to go where he wants (and needs) it to, rather than clinging on and hoping.

If - big if - BAM can fulfil a promise to provide that work, then convince him to sign up. But putting him out on-road is not the best way. He's survived his mistakes ("twice ended up on the wrong side of the road on blind bends") so far. It only takes one instance for it to become a 'home in a bag' ride . . .


Now, I have no direct knowledge of them, but:
http://www.totalcontroltraining.co.uk/
might help, and they're not too far from BAM.
I assert my author rights: Copyright Design Patent Act 1988 may be quoted in Chain Link posts, but contacted for written consent before any other use/storage/transmission/recording

Argue with me: http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com
Horse
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:28 pm

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby nickpashley » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:02 pm

Many thanks for this response. Again, nail hit on the head.
User avatar
nickpashley
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:12 pm

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby Evel Knievel » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:47 pm

nickpashley wrote:How did he ever pass his test?


By the sounds of it Nick, by bimbling around residential roads at 30mph for half an hour as per the old test. If he (as Horse suggests) hasn't got a basic grasp on countersteering then he probably wouldn't have passed the new style test.

nickpashley wrote:He has two issues, his speed on the motorway and his failure to follow the curves of the road.


If convincing him to part with 139 notes is proving difficult point him in our direction for some information on the Enhanced Rider Scheme. It's a stepping-stone to advanced, whilst remaining basic enough. Countersteering should only be "taught" by a qualified instructor.
Too much "Oh sh!t" = Not enough "What if?"
User avatar
Evel Knievel
 
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Bristol, UK

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby Horse » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:00 pm

Evel Knievel wrote: Countersteering should only be "taught" by a qualified instructor.


Which qualification do you have in mind?
I assert my author rights: Copyright Design Patent Act 1988 may be quoted in Chain Link posts, but contacted for written consent before any other use/storage/transmission/recording

Argue with me: http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com
Horse
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:28 pm

Re: Where can a new rider gain skills?

Postby tfdodo » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:41 pm

Evel Knievel wrote: Countersteering should only be "taught" by a qualified instructor.


Evel,
please tell me this isn't the DSA line that this is... "Because_its_very_scary_and_strange_and_worrying_and_dangerous_and_rather_like_)black_magic_and_ we're_not_at_all_sure_we_should_even_Go_There" ?

This would be the same countersteering that cyclists and bikers have been using since around 1900, and the DSA boldly decided about 5 years ago that UK instructors were even allowed to teach ?

That MSF teach as "Look right .. push right .. go right" ? doesnt really seem like "only rocket scientists need apply" to me...

:)
Rubber side down,
Nick A (SO-Team B)

"In a perfect world the future wouldn't make a dent..."

Balance Safety and Joy
User avatar
tfdodo
 
Posts: 1186
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:51 pm
Location: Brizzel

Next

Return to Advanced Riding Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron