Slow, Look, Lean, Roll

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Slow, Look, Lean, Roll

Postby Evel Knievel » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:08 am

...perfectly ruined by some numpty!
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Re: Slow, Look, Lean, Roll

Postby ozzzie » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:31 am

Evel Knievel wrote:...perfectly ruined by some numpty!


A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
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Postby Horse » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:40 pm

I never knew this:

Slow, Look, Lean, Roll is the mantra motorcycle racers use

Or this:

to execute turns at the highest possible speeds for the fastest possible cornering times.

And I doubt the MSF - who invented S, L/L/R - do either . . .

FWIW, and contrary to that article, the teaching was to do the L, L & R together.
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Postby ozzzie » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:59 pm

Horse wrote:FWIW, and contrary to that article, the teaching was to do the L, L & R together.


It's such an important topic, that we'd probably have to be clear about whether we're talking about track or road, as the two approaches can differ in detail.

I'd be inclined to agree with you on this as a general principle. I tend to treat bends in phases, with my attention on the following phase. On the straight I'm thinking about my braking point, while braking I'm thinking about my turning point and as I turn, I'd be looking, leaning and applying maintenance throttle as I think about the apex.

Now all that said, on track sometimes I might be looking, leaning and fading out of the brake as lean increases. It depends on circumstance (e.g. having carried a bit more speed in to stuff it up the inside of someone who's been annoying you that session).
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Postby tfdodo » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:10 pm

the original comment says it all.
Last point: In every turn, there is a single optimal path or line through that turn. When you follow that line, you are the fastest through that turn. Miss that line and you are making a sub optimal turn.


Well, Andy Ibbott from California Superbike School obviously has a thing or two to learn from this numpty blog, as according to him on p29 of this month's [March ?! 2009] BikE, not only does the apex of a given corner differ from bike to bike, but also from rider to rider. But what does he know, huh ? :o

Maybe their HR software transformations would go better if they just "rode 'em like they stole 'em" ? :D
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Postby Horse » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:07 pm

ozzzie wrote:
Horse wrote:FWIW, and contrary to that article, the teaching was to do the L, L & R together.


It's such an important topic, that we'd probably have to be clear about whether we're talking about track or road, as the two approaches can differ in detail.


Having only ever ridden twice on tracks, I'm no expert :)

But, AFAIK S/LLR was never intended for track riding, instead for road riders, and even then as a 'training method'.

And - FWIW - I don't actually agree with it as either a training or riding technique*

* I did back in '92 when I was first taught it, and from '94 when I taught it, but later I had my doubts and changed things. But that's not relevant here.
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Postby Horse » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:11 pm

tfdodo wrote: the original comment says it all.
Last point: In every turn, there is a single optimal path or line through that turn. When you follow that line, you are the fastest through that turn. Miss that line and you are making a sub optimal turn.


not only does the apex of a given corner differ from bike to bike, but also from rider to rider.


Does he give any detail on that? I can only imagine it's down to how capable a rider is, and how confident they are at applying steering and power - and from the bike's involvement, how it reacts and how well the rider can cope with the on-the-edge reaction.

But, to re-state, AFAIK S/LLR was never intended for track use.

That said, for most riders it's a good starting point - and possibly more consistant than some track riders manage :) *

* Said from a position of previously-admitted ignorance (and prejudice ;) )
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Postby ozzzie » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:10 pm

Horse wrote:But, AFAIK S/LLR was never intended for track riding, instead for road riders, and even then as a 'training method'.


Exactly.
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Postby ozzzie » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:13 pm

Horse wrote:
not only does the apex of a given corner differ from bike to bike, but also from rider to rider.


Does he give any detail on that? I can only imagine it's down to how capable a rider is, and how confident they are at applying steering and power - and from the bike's involvement, how it reacts and how well the rider can cope with the on-the-edge reaction.


Lots of riders have different lines according to personal preference and riding style. That will change the point at which they turn in and apex. It also varies from one corner to another. Some corners have just one line and others have lots of ways of getting round them.
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Postby Evel Knievel » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:50 pm

Horse wrote:And - FWIW - I don't actually agree with it as either a training or riding technique*

* I did back in '92 when I was first taught it, and from '94 when I taught it, but later I had my doubts and changed things. But that's not relevant here.


It might be relevant, can I ask what it is that you don't agree with (I find it quite useful)....?
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Postby tfdodo » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:57 pm

Horse wrote:
Does he give any detail on that? I can only imagine it's down to how capable a rider is, and how confident they are at applying steering and power - and from the bike's involvement, how it reacts and how well the rider can cope with the on-the-edge reaction....


From the Bike point of view, my understanding is it depends partly on power vs grip. On my 400 [not that I'm any expert either, its "quite a slow 400 when I'm on it" ;) ] I can take a fairly smooth line through corners and still add [what little] power [there is] early past the apex whilst still leant over with little risk of overpowering the grip at the back.

On a litre sports you'd want much more to straighten the approach, lose more speed to corner more sharply, and get the bike upright as soon as poss to reapply vast amounts of power with the bike pretty much upright so as not to high-side. Much less concern with maintaining momentum.

then +1 to what Oz said re riders, and +1 to what Evel said - I'd also be interested in your reservations about SLLR ?
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Re:

Postby Horse » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:00 pm

Evel Knievel wrote:
Horse wrote:And - FWIW - I don't actually agree with it as either a training or riding technique*

* I did back in '92 when I was first taught it, and from '94 when I taught it, but later I had my doubts and changed things. But that's not relevant here.


It might be relevant, can I ask what it is that you don't agree with (I find it quite useful)....?


Holy Thread Bounce, Batman!

While Googling for something else (if you must know, the use of Look-Lean-Roll in the new DfT bike videos) . . . I found this thread and realised I'd never answered the question. So . . .

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.co.uk/p/cornering.html

Excerpt:

The Ride wrote:In 1992 I became involved the US-based Motorcycle Safety Foundation, which taught a simple cornering ‘system’:

Slow, Look/Lean/Roll

Slow upright and in a straight line
Look where you want to go
Lean the bike (by counter-steering)
Roll the throttle on through the turn

Like the 5xS, I was quite happy with this for several years, but moer recently have found that it wasn’t what I actually did.

So I spent some time analysing my own riding and found that I actually started to open the throttle slightly before looking and steering, although I would still roll on the throttle through the turn.

As with the 5xS, this was part of a longer re-assessment of how I taught successful cornering.

So now I’m pleased to introduce the ‘S’s of motorcycling numbers 4, 5 and 6! (Although, of course, they’re really another 1, 2, 3)

This is the Malc improved cornering system: Speed Settle Steer

Slow: set the speed for the bend, select the appropriate gear to suit
Settle: both bike and rider
– off the brakes
– check you’re relaxed and comfortable
– open the throttle to balance the bike
Steer: head and hands, look where you want to go, press to steer, roll on the throttle
This allows a rider a little bit of ‘breathing space’ as they approach the bend, which encourages a riding style where the bike enters the bend balanced and under control.
It also acknowledges that all three of head [look], hands [bars & throttle] are important elements of steering.

The key thing, really, is earlier planning. You shouldn't have to 'fight' to get a bike around a corner. If that is the case, then you're doing it wrong, simple as.


Getting the bike around should be easy - you shouldn't need 'effort' at all.

So next time you're out for a ride, start by planning early for the bend, getting your speed down early (to a speed where you're comfortable looking well ahead around the corner - turning your entire head not just your eyes (point your chin where you want to go) - and to a speed where you're comfortable opening the throttle to drive the bike (going in with the throttle closed will make the bike feel 'heavy' and unco-operative).
Get yourself settled and relaxed (there's no need to hang off like a gibbon to get a bike to turn, you can sit 'square' on the bike and just use your forearms to steer (and a relaxed riding position with loose shoulders and arms will allow that arm movement).
Then settle the bike, off the brakes, gear seected, open the throttle to get the engine pulling.
Remember, all this is before you enter the turn!
At the start of the turn, point your chin and press on the bar. Keep looking, keep driving under power. If the bend tightens, turn your head further, press more to lean more.


Quoted with all the typos :)
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Re: Slow, Look, Lean, Roll

Postby jogler » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:02 am

Thank you for your belated reply, Horse. Unfortunately, Evel (Iain) is no longer with us to benefit as he tragically died in a canoeing accident a few years ago. Just to let you know.
However, your post will no doubt be of benefit to others.
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Re: Slow, Look, Lean, Roll

Postby Horse » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:04 pm

Ah, sorry if I've brought back unpleasant memories. I remember being shocked reading about him at the time.
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Re: Slow, Look, Lean, Roll

Postby ozzzie » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:41 am

Horse wrote:Ah, sorry if I've brought back unpleasant memories. I remember being shocked reading about him at the time.


It's not a bad thing to remember Iain, although his loss was obviously sad. He was one of life's big characters.
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